On words

[adrienmundi]

Specifically, pronouns:

This has almost always been a rough part for me, for reasons I'm sure a regular reader will know (probably to the point of tedium). In a nutshell, here's the breakdown:

I know "he" isn't right. It's also darned uncomfortable, at times painful and unpleaseant. It bugs me that this is the default to which others will resort, seemingly without question. Plus, I've logged way too much time exclusively under this label that doesn't fit.

I suspect "she" isn't right, either, but I've very little experiential data with which to make a more certain claim. It's certainly not the default. And, while it may be wrong, it doesn't have the accumulation of years of experienced wrongness attached to it.

I don't like "he", but knowing that "she" likely isn't right either, it feels unfair to request a change on the part of others, particularly since I suspect that it indicates a polar shift in the minds of many.

I've said before, "Use whichever seems appropriate" to people, but I think most go for the default out of socialization, and because I don't always overtly resist that. (Never mind that I know plenty of presumed 'innies' who dress more relaxed/androgynously than I do. I suspect it's the presumption of 'natural order' at work).

So, that's what I don't know, and how I don't know it.

Comments

[thewonderfuller.livejournal.com]

I've said before, "Use whichever seems appropriate" to people

and, yet, if they choose "he," that feels wrong to you. i've never heard you or anyone else comment positively on the use of "it" to refer to a person. so it sounds like "she" is really what you want, at least for now, at least if you want to stay with traditionally singular pronouns.

personally, i think we should take advantage of the common usage of "they" as a singular. it doesn't presume any specific gender.

[relativeaffect.livejournal.com]

except if feckless (notice my avoidance of choosing a pronoun yet) is standing right there and the person is pointing and referring...
I think "they" would be even more awkward.

[thewonderfuller.livejournal.com]

i don't know that awkwardness can be avoided if we want to do something different from the default. for some people, saying "she" when referring to A will be awkward. "they" would be awkward, too, and probably more so, just because of the implicit number. english pronouns are just poorly suited to the task of referring to a person who does not fit neatly into one of two predetermined gender categories. i think that's what we are trying to change, if even in a small way.

the only way to get beyond something being awkward is for people to do it enough that it becomes familiar and, hopefully, comfortable. at this point, all pronouns are awkward, because they presume a gender or number that is not appropriate. of course, one option is to simply stop using pronouns, but that is also against the default.

i think the idea here is to distribute the awkwardness. if A's friends make a consistent and public effort to change the default, then we all take on some of the awkwardness and help others see that their presumption that the masculine default is appropriate is unwarranted and should be reconsidered. it's not a perfect solution, but i don't know that there is one. it just seems like we have to do *something,* because A is unhappy and doing nothing (or at least nothing consistent and collective) doesn't seem to be changing that.

[relativeaffect.livejournal.com]

*nod*
yes, I understand. My first impulse was that "they" would be more awkward than other alternatives, but I suppose using "it" might have unwanted connotations (it seems to me it's a bit dehumanizing).
I have also been searching for a non gender specific pronoun for general use, and if ya'll are going to use "they," then I'm somewhat inclined to start using "they" as well.

[adrienmundi]

personally, i think we should take advantage of the common usage of "they" as a singular. it doesn't presume any specific gender.

But it does carry with it the expectation of royalty, which I most assuredly am not.

[relativeaffect.livejournal.com]

Before I read Kim's response, I was lamenting the idea that we have no neuter pronoun in English, but we do, in fact, have "it".
I wonder why it seems so unnatural to use "it" when referring to people. Do you think it has something to do with our inanimate objects being genderless?
If you're comfortable with "she", I'd use it, but I am more sympathetic than most I believe.

[fairyhead.livejournal.com]

I've said this before and will keep saying it, just in hopes that it'll be believable at some point ...

I have no problems with you experimenting with pronouns. none There was a point in time when I was alternating 'she' and 'he', though the response seemed tepid from you, so I didn't work on making it a 'habit' and kind of let it fall out of use. I've kind of been waiting to see if some better option came up.

That being said, though, I am perfectly happy to go with 'she' and let you 'try it on' for a while. I'm willing to bet that other people will, too. And, if that doesn't work for you, that's ok. We can try something else and if that doesn't work, we'll try something else and so on and so on.

It's ok ... 1. you are totally worth it 2. we want you to feel more comfortable in the world 3. it's not like it's actual work to switch around pronouns

This isn't like you are asking a big favor of your friends. If you choose to do so, you're simply asking folks to help you try out a different word. It really is ok for you to ask for that and potentially find that it's not the best fit.

[thewonderfuller.livejournal.com]

what she said.

this is an experiment for all of us. no one knows how it is going to turn out. but the good thing about experimenting is that you are not committed to the first thing you try, or the second, or the third... you get to keep going until you find the thing that really "feels right" for you. if nothing established works, you can still keep trying new and creative things.

this is important to you. that makes it important to the people who care about you. you deserve to be happy and comfortable in your own body. if trying different pronouns helps you get closer to that, then i am totally for it and i will do what ever i can to facilitate it.

so shall it be "she" for the time being, with open permission to correct people who use "he"?

[adrienmundi]

There was a point in time when I was alternating 'she' and 'he', though the response seemed tepid from you

It feels incredibly foolish, and dangerous at the same time, to me to say "That thing that you're doing; I like it". To me, letting someone know I like something means giving them the power to take it away, or deny it to me.

Relatedly, I'm better in theory with alternation as it suits people, but in practice, I think they are so habituated to read me as some flavor of masculine that they automatically filter everything that direction without thought or reflection. Or more directly, I'm alright with either/or in practice, so long as it's not always defaulting to masculine; I find it offensive and depressing to think that I might always come off that way to so many.

[fairyhead.livejournal.com]

It feels incredibly foolish, and dangerous at the same time, to me to say "That thing that you're doing; I like it". To me, letting someone know I like something means giving them the power to take it away, or deny it to me.

I know it does and completely understand. Unfortunately, from my perspective, it looks like I'm making wasted effort, because I'm not in your brain and can't see if I'm doing any good.

Relatedly, I'm better in theory with alternation as it suits people, but in practice, I think they are so habituated to read me as some flavor of masculine that they automatically filter everything that direction without thought or reflection. Or more directly, I'm alright with either/or in practice, so long as it's not always defaulting to masculine; I find it offensive and depressing to think that I might always come off that way to so many.

While I understand the theory behind alternating and am comfortable with it, it gets a little weird for me ... in *my* brain, if I know the person, I don't tend to think of them as 'he' or 'she'. I tend to think more in proper nouns, though not necessarily names, like for you, the default way that you pop up in my mind is, firstly, just a mental image of you (particularly, you smiling or having a more relaxed face), then if I'm specifically framing things, etc., I tend to think of you as Dearest or The Dearest. When I'm speaking, I then tend to put a filter on that and 'convert' thoughts to 'he' or 'she', because I know I tend to be ramble-y to most people and try to shorten/simplify things *for other people*.

I know this is a point of frustration for you, but that's really the way I tend to think of you and see you. So, in my mind, there's never really an alteration, as you are always simply/completely/niftily *you* in my brain. I can alternate pronouns or shift or even fricassee them, but it's inherently an artificial construct in my mind, for the people that I feel close to. (I don't know if that makes sense or not. I'm not trying to make things more difficult, but want to try to convey how my brain works on this subject. Heh. I never thought I'd have reason to use 'artificial construct' in my everyday language ...)

[adrienmundi]

I can alternate pronouns or shift or even fricassee them, but it's inherently an artificial construct in my mind

Does this mean pronouns are generally an artificial construct for everyone, or just with regard to me?

[fairyhead.livejournal.com]

More with you, than anyone else, because you are the one that I feel closest to, so have less boxes-for-ease/ways-of-keeping-a-distance and more ... human-ness.

Hmmm ... so I guess what I'm really saying is that I like and trust you more than anyone, so you seem more human to me, so I tend to think of you more in term of just the good stuff and not of ways of keeping you away/neutralized/safe.

People that I like and trust tend to, in my mind, be more the proper nouns than the pronouns in my mind.

People that I don't like and trust tend to be, in my mind, just the pronouns (or something less neutral), rather than the person.

Geez, it sound really dehumanizing, when put in that way ... but, that's about the only way I can describe it. You are Most Special, so there are fewer markers-for-convenience, you've been defined beyond mere pronouns for me. Other people come close, but not quite to that state, but it's not a matter of me making special dispensations for you, just that you occupy a different place in my world, from other people.

Does that make any sense, at all?

[adrienmundi]

Yeah, I think it makes sense, but here's the test; if I understand properly what you're saying, the assignment of any gendered pronoun is artificial for you in regards to me, right?

[splishy.livejournal.com]

Maybe I am crazy, but since language is a constantly changing, evolving thing, why not find a word that you feel fits how you feel about this issue, and we can use that as a pronoun. It seems to me that there have always been people who did not fit the binary. Unfortunately, our culture is not one of those cultures who honor and respect those people. In much of the world's history people who did not fit in the binary were marginalized. However, I think it is a good time to consider looking at people beyond the two categories of he and she. Sometimes change can start in a small place and grow from there.

On another, related note, in my crazy, emotional meeting today (when I wrote about writing learning profiles,) I discussed that part of what made it so incredibly difficult was that we were trying to put the person as a WHOLE down on paper, not just their academic "strenghths" and "weaknesses". That is near to impossible. So much of how we talk about other people is in terms of what various boxes they fit into. Trying to catch a whole human being in all of their various aspects is so hard to do. As humans, we are such complicated beings that our language does not do us justice.

So, the point is, you are human. That makes you a complicated compilation of likes, dislikes, characteristics, actions, feelings, thoughts and so many other things. We need to force our language to be useful to us. That is what its purpose is, to communicate that which we need to share with others.
Just from what I have read of your posts, neither he or she makes sense for you. Lets make up a word, or take a word you like the meaning of and we'll make a new "slang" word, that might just spread far and wide.

[subjective.livejournal.com]

hi. i feel like my life & a's life parallel in lots of ways-- it's rad to see that our partners say similar things about this kind of stuff too. reading this sort of restored my faith in other people. you obviously rock.

a: if you want to talk about pronouns & interacting with other people in this way, feel free to get in touch. i had really similar feelings (about imposing on others when i wasn't sure what was "right" for me, about putting myself in the other box, etc) about a year ago. for a while most of my friends were avoiding pronouns entirely, & then i decided to try out "he" with my girlfriend & a few close friends, just at their homes & stuff. it helped me figure out what felt better to me.

another aspect of it was thinking non-binarily about how people would perceive me (as i've yet to engage in medical options) & how using "he" would be a tool i could use to put a rift in binary gendering.

anyway. best of luck. keep your head up.

[fairyhead.livejournal.com]

Hi back!

You know, if I could hug you, right now, I would! *grin*

Thank you for the very kindly compliment. Wow! Thinking that I could, even in a little way, help restore someone's faith in people ... I'm probably going to have a dumb grin on my face for the rest of the day!

More importantly, though, as always I'm impressed/pleased with your wonderful ability to say the right things so well. I know that Dearest can say it better than I'll ever be able to, but your ideas, input, and support are goodness. Thanks.